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Loss and stuff like that

 
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LEON
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PostPosted: 23.07.2009, 22:22    Post subject: Loss and stuff like that Reply with quote

Hi Guys

Ok, this is a bit complicated, but I'll try my best to explain.

I have allways, since day one I started to play D3 online, seen weapon fire that don't do any damage even though it hits the player on my screen. I've seen homers, megas, mortars.....etc just disappear and suck up by the player. Same for primary fire. I think it's worse now than back couple years ago, for some reason. I have asked people if it was better before, some agree with me and some do not agree. So i don't know if it's my memory that plays me a trick or what not.
Well anyway, if it's worse now or back then is not my topic now. What I wanna know is why this stuff is goin on. How the D3 netcode works. My conlusion was -it must be my weaponfire that do not reach the server. Somehow my weapon is lost on its way to the server, in short -I see my fire on my screen, but there's no fire on the server- I came to this conlusion a day one of my opponents ask me to shoot a mega at him. I launched a mega just to see him throw up the keybord and say "Come on, what are you waiting for" and I see the mega disappear on him. I shot another one and this one he sees. What made me have doubt about my conclusion is sometimes the mega kicks the player to the other side of the map with no damage, or a MD hit kicks him around. Or I hit with a napalm rocket, it just disappear on him, he runs, I go after him, just to discover that my napalm are all over the place, and I kill myself. So clearly my napalmrocket made it to the server.

I have had some discussion with couple guys that complain on me running through their fire. I try to explain that this stuff is going on at my end as well, I see them running trough my fire. Which they don't believe in, EH!? -They don't see my fire hit-, well guess what Auf den Arm nehmen ...I don't see their fire hit me either. Well anyway. What I can't understand is why are some particular players worse to hit than others? If it's my loss that cause this effect, then it shouldn't matter who I play against. But that's not the case. Some players are allways running through my fire. When I finally hit them -lets say with vauss- they are way off of my reticle, I can understand if I hit when my reticle is a bit in front of their speed direction, but the fact is, sometimes my reticle is behinde or even above!!??

Someone have an explanation to this. An easy one to understand Auf den Arm nehmen Especially this one -Mega hit and kick the player away, but no damage- I have a hard time understanding that one.

Leon

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Foil
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PostPosted: 23.07.2009, 23:06    Post subject: Re: Loss and stuff like that Reply with quote

[Note: I am assuming you are playing in client/server games, not peer-to-peer.]

LEON wrote:
My conlusion was -it must be my weaponfire that do not reach the server. Somehow my weapon is lost on its way to the server, in short -I see my fire on my screen, but there's no fire on the server- I came to this conlusion a day one of my opponents ask me to shoot a mega at him. I launched a mega just to see him throw up the keybord and say "Come on, what are you waiting for" and I see the mega disappear on him. I shot another one and this one he sees.


In that situation, I think the Mega packet got lost. If this happens a lot, I recommend getting your internet connection checked.

-----------

However, most of the time, weird things are due to simple latency ("lag"). Remember, damage is done on the server, and shots that you see hit might miss on the server because of the time difference.

LEON wrote:
...sometimes the mega kicks the player to the other side of the map with no damage, or a MD hit kicks him around. ...
-Mega hit and kick the player away, but no damage- I have a hard time understanding that one.


These are very common, they happen all the time.

The mega is hitting the other player on his screen (so he gets bounced), but not on the server (so there is no damage).

The same for MD bounces - it hit the other player on his screen (so he gets bounced), but not on the server (so there is no damage).

LEON wrote:
What made me have doubt about my conclusion is Or I hit with a napalm rocket, it just disappear on him, he runs, I go after him, just to discover that my napalm are all over the place, and I kill myself. So clearly my napalmrocket made it to the server.


This happens all the time, too.

On your screen, the rocket disappears because it appears to hit a ship. However, on the server, the napalm missed and hit the wall.

Here's what I do: If I see a napalm rocket disappear, I stay away, because it is probably all over the place on the server. Winken

LEON wrote:
What I can't understand is why are some particular players worse to hit than others?[ If it's my loss that cause this effect, then it shouldn't matter who I play against. But that's not the case. Some players are allways running through my fire. When I finally hit them -lets say with vauss- they are way off of my reticle, I can understand if I hit when my reticle is a bit in front of their speed direction, but the fact is, sometimes my reticle is behinde or even above!!??


Ah, that one is more difficult to explain. Geschockt

Most of the time, players who are harder to hit are the ones who change direction very frequently (this makes their path on the server very 'jittery', because of the way the server tries to determine their motion).

[Note: AC has a "smoothing" feature to try to fix this, but some players say it can make things worse. This is why I have AC smoothing turned off for my servers.]


Last edited by Foil on 24.07.2009, 00:45; edited 2 times in total
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WillyP
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PostPosted: 24.07.2009, 01:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some good informational pages on Planet Descent. Check the hosted sites section.
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LEON
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PostPosted: 24.07.2009, 10:21    Post subject: Re: Loss and stuff like that Reply with quote

Quote:
[The mega is hitting the other player on his screen (so he gets bounced), but not on the server (so there is no damage).

The same for MD bounces - it hit the other player on his screen (so he gets bounced), but not on the server (so there is no damage).


I had to chew on this one for a while Sehr glücklich
So this means, if my compuert see a mega hit me -my computer will bounce me away, and because the mega didn't hit me on the server no damage are taken, hmmmm... What in da blue heaven was the server thinking? I mean, I see the mega hit on my screen, my opponent see the mega hit on his screen, but somehow it didn't on the server!!?? The server sees me dodge or something?! LoL.
This means there's actually 3 megas existing in the viritual world, one on my computer, one on my opponents computer and finally one on the server. And only if all 3 of them is performing the same behavior the game will appear accurate. And theoretical it's possible that all 3 of them can perform 3 diffrent behavior, which will make the game very jerky.
So I guess it's the same thing when you are killed by a smart blob even though you don't hear any track alarm. Smart blob hit the wall on my computer, but not on the server, and because my computer doesn't see any blob it doesn't give me a tracking alarm either. I guess this has nothing to do with loss, this is lag

Speaking of loss, I guess that the 'damage packet drop' is just a myth. If you die on the server and the damage packet are lost, and you continue to send weapon and positon packet, there will be an conflict on the server. How does the server deal with this kind of an issue?

How I understand loss now, -my loss is more to my disadvantage than my advantage-. When people complain on loss, it's actually their own loss that is the problem, ironic Mit den Augen rollen

This problem with weapons that doesn't do any damage is according to my experince more present now than back in PXO days. It's more like the rule rather than the exceptation. I have tried everything to adjust my settings and clean my system, with no success. Some have indicated it's due to more wireless players, increase in net traffic and net companys that doesn't deliver same qualitys on netconnection as before. Some have even suggested that sevicepack3 has more security parameters that slow down the system. I don't know.


Quote:
Ah, that one is more difficult to explain. Geschockt

Most of the time, players who are harder to hit are the ones who change direction very frequently (this makes their path on the server very 'jittery', because of the way the server tries to determine their motion).


I have thought about that as well. But I can't see any more wild flying with them. This happen even when they just fly straight.

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Last edited by LEON on 24.07.2009, 10:26; edited 1 time in total
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Foil
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PostPosted: 24.07.2009, 16:37    Post subject: Re: Loss and stuff like that Reply with quote

LEON wrote:
So this means, if my compuert see a mega hit me -my computer will bounce me away, and because the mega didn't hit me on the server no damage are taken, hmmmm... What in da blue heaven was the server thinking? I mean, I see the mega hit on my screen, my opponent see the mega hit on his screen, but somehow it didn't on the server!!?? The server sees me dodge or something?!


There are a few ways I've seen this happen:

Most of the time, it happens when I miss by shooting in front of the other guy - it misses on the server, but when the shot reaches him on his screen, it hits and he bounces.

Sometimes, it's when someone dodges to the side and back (e.g. left, then right) - I think I hit before he dodged, but the server sees him dodge it, but then he comes back gets bounced.

Another way is that in levels with curved walls (like Veins), sometimes the Mega hits a wall on the server, but the players still see it.

There's also something I've seen a couple of times - someone is going slow, and then accelerates directly into a Mega just before it hits. It's weird, but once in a while, it works as a dodge because they actually get bounced away just before the server sees the hit (it can happen, strange).

LEON wrote:
So I guess it's the same thing when you are killed by a smart blob even though you don't hear any track alarm. Smart blob hit the wall on my computer, but not on the server, and because my computer doesn't see any blob it doesn't give me a tracking alarm either. I guess this has nothing to do with loss, this is lag.


Yeah, kind of similar. Most of the time it's because the smart blob is tracking or someone else (or no-one) on your screen.

That's a frustrating one, because when I see a smart blob floating away from me I wonder if it's tracking me on the server. So if you see me dodging nothing, that's probably why. Geschockt

LEON wrote:
Speaking of loss, I guess that the 'damage packet drop' is just a myth. If you die on the server and the damage packet are lost, and you continue to send weapon and positon packet, there will be an conflict on the server. How does the server deal with this kind of an issue?


Good question!

The 'death' messages in D3 are carried in "reliable packets" (meaning the server is looking for a response). If you die on the server, but you never receive the 'death' packet, the server will try to re-send it.

I'm not sure about weapons - you're right, it sometimes seems like the server still allows players to fire for a short time after dying. I'm not sure why that is.

LEON wrote:
This problem with weapons that doesn't do any damage is according to my experince more present now than back in PXO days. It's more like the rule rather than the exceptation.


Hmm, I wasn't around during PXO. For me, it seems like games play better now than a few years ago. Of course, I have a better connection now.
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LEON
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PostPosted: 25.07.2009, 12:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your replys Foil.

Quote:
That's a frustrating one, because when I see a smart blob floating away from me I wonder if it's tracking me on the server. So if you see me dodging nothing, that's probably why.


Hehe, yeah. I do that a lot myself as well.

Quote:
The 'death' messages in D3 are carried in "reliable packets" (meaning the server is looking for a response). If you die on the server, but you never receive the 'death' packet, the server will try to re-send it.


Ok, so this means -droping damage is not possible- it will be resent until you got it.
Only way I see my own loss is to my adantage then, is if my position packet are lost. Which will give my opponent a hard time hitting me.
BTW, are the loss meter up in the left corner accurate?

Quote:
sometimes seems like the server still allows players to fire for a short time after dying. I'm not sure why that is.


I have seen this a lot, only with vauss though. I have even been killed by that kind of fire Mit den Augen rollen

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Munk
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PostPosted: 25.07.2009, 13:29    Post subject: Reply with quote

LEON wrote:
Only way I see my own loss is to my adantage then, is if my position packet are lost. Which will give my opponent a hard time hitting me.


Exactly, not knowing something (i.e. a packet from the server is lost) could hardly be an advantage to you, unless it is bad news: If the packet which states that you are dead "effective immediatly" is delayed, your client still allows you to fire weapons. This is how double kills in Instareap is possible (i.e. 2 players shoot each other and die the same time),
or you sometimes sees the "vauss role", when there is someone shooting vauss already in "death role".
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LEON
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PostPosted: 25.07.2009, 19:52    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so I guess is back to Ping is King, because Loss is not Boss Auf den Arm nehmen

Ok, here is another one: I once saw a guy launch a mortar, the mortar was drifting pretty close to a guy thet was typing something. Since I saw the mortar it must means the mortar definitely was ON THE server, because it wasn't me that launched the mortar. The mortar blow up and the typing guy didn't bounce or take any damage. So how could this happen?

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Munk
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PostPosted: 25.07.2009, 20:17    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could be one of the following examples:

On Peer2Peer games this could happen if the packet containing the mortar would been lost. However most games are Client/Server based.

The mortar package sent to you was much much delayed. But then the mortar must have been exploded even before he started typing. But that seems way unlikely, as UDP packets are rather discarded than delayed.

Last option would be that it was some kind of team game (team anarchy, Entropy or CTF), where both players were on the same team. Usually you expect a bounce from a mortar even from your own team, but no damage.
On the players screen this could have been a direct hit, so no bounce. On your screen it missed the direct hit, so you see the blast.

Ultimativly, it could have been a blind ^^
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